In June this year the Swedish government proposed that all Swedish universities would get the opportunity to be transformed into private foundations. This week, however, the proposition was put on ice. When Lundagård got a chance to talk to the Minister for Education, Jan Björklund (FP), we were therefore particularly eager to talk about this issue – but also about equality and education.
What’s the reason for putting the proposition on ice?
”I think we should go through with the proposition to make it possible for universities to become private foundations. Universities aren’t just any administrative authority. They should be free academies that are not controlled by the state and not subject to the Minister for Education like public authorities are. I think the proposition that we have is essentially a proper one. There are, however, some aspects of it that need to be highlighted, for example, student representatives have asked for clarification regarding student rights, and the board at Lund University have pointed out the question of whether they can own student housing as a private foundation.
“For me it’s not about whether private foundations are ok or not because I think that is the right way to go, there are, however, some more minor issues that we need to address further.”
How come you make this proposition without having investigated issues like how student rights will be looked after?
“The investigation made this proposition and believed that it was thorough but my judgment is that we need to address some minor issues further. But this is not strange since all proposed bills are taken under consideration and then there are lots of things that can come up and make you want to look at it further.
There are those who say that a foundation system doesn’t really give the kind of freedom you are talking about, that universities would still be state owned and subject to government rule – What’s your comment on that?
“Well, that’s correct. It’s a conflict of goals, were we to look after student rights for instance, that would become a limitation. Civil Engineering or Teacher Education programs should of course follow the curriculum; you can’t just make changes here and there. If you do you won’t have any students because the students want to attend an education that is valid in Sweden. So there will always be limitations but there would be much more freedom than there is today.
Do you have any idea of how well established the proposal to change universities into private foundations is among students and university employees?
“So far we’ve only received a few comments. One of them is very positive, and another one pretty negative. One is in between and positive to the idea but wanting to highlight a few issues. For me it’s important that if we pass this legislation I don’t intend to force any of the seats of learning to become a private foundation; this is something they will have to decide for themselves. What we are doing is giving them the opportunity to do so.”
“In the 90s two seats of learning became private foundations, Chalmers in Gothenburg which is a big university, and Jönköping University which is a smaller one. Both are very satisfied. I have been to both places quite a lot of times and I have talked to their boards as well as teachers and there is no one there who wants to go back to the administrative authority system.”
But why make this change? What is it that’s not working with today’s system?
“The universities become more independent. The way it is today, board members are appointed by the government, we have a lot of rules on how to run things. I would like universities to be less controlled by the state. The most successful universities in the world are run as private foundations and not as public authorities. Here in Sweden we already have a few universities that are run as private foundations.
But it’s not exactly the same system as, for example, Oxford has…
“No, they are privately funded as well but I don’t think our universities should be. It is true that universities would be much more free from state control if they were allowed to take fees from the students, but I don’t want to do things that way, so this, of course, is a compromise.
Leaving the issue of privatizing. What would you say is the most important role of universities today?
“Universities are important in many aspects. To begin with they have an educational function. Universities should educate in order to create a higher standard of both knowledge and education in our society, but also in order to fill the needs the market has when it comes to academic competence in the work force. Then there’s a research role, if we’re going to divide it up like that, where the task is to question established knowledge as well as create new knowledge, and universities have both these functions.
How would you define the term “education”?
“It is such a complex term that is not very easily defined. To begin with you need to have knowledge of various things but you also need understanding and the ability to think critically about your surroundings, both nearby and in a broader sense. All this requires you having a lot of knowledge but also the ability to have a critical approach to things.
Today, only 23 percent of the professors at Lund University are women. Is this a problem?
“Yes, it is a problem. But I want to emphasise that things are moving in the right direction. When you say 23 percent are women you’re counting everyone appointed in the 70s, 80s and 90s because once appointed you will be a professor for the rest of your life. A more relevant way to calculate this is to look at those who are appointed today, in which case the number is much higher, it’s not fifty-fifty but in the whole of Sweden we have around 35-40 percent women. And every year, when new people join this group and some people leave it, the balance changes slightly but since you’re a professor for the rest of your life once appointed we have a legacy that makes this job male-dominated.”
“I don’t think 35 percent of those newly appointed is enough but you should look at the way things are going, at the people who get their PhD. The next thing to address is recruitment but that bit is really changing in the right direction, but since you’re a professor your entire life once elected it will take a while until the right balance is achieved.”
There are still problems with bottlenecks between the number of women getting their PhD and those who become professors. What do you think can be done about that?
“With every year that passes this is evening out. Of course, if one could fire all the old professors, the right balance would be achieved immediately. But we don’t do that, because once elected you are a professor for the remainder of your life. But I don’t think we should be satisfied until we’ve reached 50 percent. What I think we should do, and are actually doing, is to put up clear goals when it comes to hiring women, that’s one thing. The seats of learning must report to the government whether they have reached these goals or not, and if not why this is. Regarding research grants we have come up with a new method. In the past, grants were given to large research teams that quite often had elderly men as team leaders. We are now more often giving them to individuals, which has meant that all of a sudden the recipients are more often young and female.
During the debate, as well as now, you talked a lot about being patient and the fact that it takes time before we can see the results of your reforms. When can we expect to see the results of your reforms – regarding equality as well as other educational issues?
“For every year that passes we can see that the number of female professors is increasing, since 2006 it has increased with 1 percent each year. You mentioned earlier the number of female professors, which was 17 percent six years ago and has reached 23 percent today.
And regarding primary school and results in general?
“We can already see some improvements. For example, we have seen an increase in the number of applicants for schools of education, more people are studying maths and foreign languages, this we can already see. The students overall results, however, and the kind of things that are measured on an international level, take time. Professor Per Tullberg, who has been investigating this issue, says that it takes five to ten years from the time when the reforms are carried out until you can see results, but it’s impossible to say exactly how long it takes.
Text: Virve Ivarsson
Photo: Jens Hansen
Translation: Karin Briheim